美國(guó)知名導(dǎo)演斯派克·李談?wù)捕鳌丶{的《大師》爭(zhēng)議:“黑人的天才常常被忽視的象征”
Spike Lee is among those upset about Rolling Stone co-founder Jann Wenner’s recent controversial choice to leave women and Black musicians out of his new book The Masters.
《滾石》聯(lián)合創(chuàng)始人詹恩·溫納最近有爭(zhēng)議地選擇將女性和黑人音樂(lè)家排除在他的新書《大師》之外，斯派克·李就是其中之一。
During a wide-ranging interview with Lee at the 2023 New Yorker Festival on Saturday, New Yorker editor David Remnick recalled how a few weeks ago the pair were talking and Lee was “exercised” about the Wenner controversy.
上周六，在2023年紐約客節(jié)(New Yorker Festival)上，《紐約客》編輯大衛(wèi)·雷姆尼克(David Remnick)對(duì)李進(jìn)行了廣泛的采訪，他回憶了幾周前兩人的談話，李對(duì)溫納的爭(zhēng)議感到“不安”。
“It is just emblematic of how often Black people, brown people, colored people are overlooked for their genius, for their skill, hard work,” Lee said during the New Yorker Festival talk.
“這只是一個(gè)象征，表明黑人、棕色人種和有色人種的天才、技能和努力工作常常被忽視，”李在紐約客節(jié)演講中說(shuō)。
When reminded that Wenner had explained these omissions, in an interview with The New York Times that seemed to kickstart the backlash against the Rolling Stone co-founder, by saying that no female or Black artists were “articulate” enough to be included, Lee suggested that may have been particularly what he was irritated about.
在《紐約時(shí)報(bào)》的一次采訪中，溫納解釋了這些遺漏，他說(shuō)沒(méi)有女性或黑人藝術(shù)家“表達(dá)能力”足以被包括在內(nèi)，這似乎引發(fā)了對(duì)這位《滾石》聯(lián)合創(chuàng)始人的強(qiáng)烈反對(duì)。當(dāng)被提醒說(shuō)這可能是他特別惱火的地方。
“Whoa! There you go,” Lee said when Remnick recapped the “articulate” excuse.
“哇!這就對(duì)了，”李在雷姆尼克復(fù)述“清晰”的借口時(shí)說(shuō)。
“Think about all of the people you left out,” Lee continued. “I mean Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, they didn’t invent rock ‘n’ roll.”
“想想你漏掉的所有人，”李繼續(xù)說(shuō)道。“我的意思是，貓王、杰里·李·劉易斯，他們并沒(méi)有發(fā)明搖滾樂(lè)。”
In the Times interview, when asked about his selection process, after Wenner noted in the intro to The Masters that female and Black performers weren’t in his zeitgeist, Wenner said, “When I was referring to the zeitgeist, I was referring to Black performers, not to the female performers, OK? Just to get that accurate. The selection was not a deliberate selection. It was kind of intuitive over the years; it just fell together that way. The people had to meet a couple criteria, but it was just kind of my personal interest and love of them. Insofar as the women, just none of them were as articulate enough on this intellectual level.”
在接受《紐約時(shí)報(bào)》采訪時(shí)，當(dāng)被問(wèn)及他的選擇過(guò)程時(shí)，溫納在《大師》的介紹中指出，女性和黑人表演者不符合他的時(shí)代精神，溫納說(shuō):“當(dāng)我提到時(shí)代精神時(shí)，我指的是黑人表演者，而不是女性表演者，好嗎?為了得到準(zhǔn)確的結(jié)果。這種選擇并不是經(jīng)過(guò)深思熟慮的。多年來(lái)，這是一種直覺(jué);它們就這樣聚在一起了。這些人必須滿足一些標(biāo)準(zhǔn)，但這只是我個(gè)人的興趣和對(duì)他們的喜愛(ài)。就女性而言，她們中沒(méi)有一個(gè)人在智力層面上表達(dá)得足夠清晰。”
When The Times‘ David Marchese, who formerly worked for Rolling Stone, suggested that perhaps Joni Mitchell could have been included, Wenner said, “It’s not that they’re not creative geniuses. It’s not that they’re inarticulate, although, go have a deep conversation with Grace Slick or Janis Joplin. Please, be my guest. You know, Joni was not a philosopher of rock ’n’ roll. She didn’t, in my mind, meet that test. Not by her work, not by other interviews she did. The people I interviewed were the kind of philosophers of rock. Of Black artists — you know, Stevie Wonder, genius, right? I suppose when you use a word as broad as ‘masters,’ the fault is using that word. Maybe Marvin Gaye, or Curtis Mayfield? I mean, they just didn’t articulate at that level.”
曾供職于《滾石》雜志的《紐約時(shí)報(bào)》記者大衛(wèi)·馬切斯(David Marchese)提出，或許喬尼·米切爾(Joni Mitchell)也可以入選，溫納說(shuō)，“這并不是說(shuō)他們不是創(chuàng)意天才。這并不是說(shuō)他們不善于表達(dá)，不過(guò)，去和格蕾絲·斯利克或詹尼斯·喬普林進(jìn)行一次深入的交談吧。請(qǐng)別客氣。你知道，喬尼不是搖滾樂(lè)的哲學(xué)家。在我看來(lái)，她不符合這個(gè)標(biāo)準(zhǔn)。不是因?yàn)樗淖髌?，也不是因?yàn)樗邮艿钠渌稍L。我采訪的人都是搖滾樂(lè)的哲學(xué)家。黑人藝術(shù)家——你知道，史蒂夫·汪達(dá)，天才，對(duì)吧?我想，當(dāng)你使用‘主人’這樣一個(gè)寬泛的詞時(shí)，錯(cuò)誤就在于使用了這個(gè)詞。也許是馬文·蓋伊，或者柯蒂斯·梅菲爾德?我的意思是，他們只是沒(méi)有達(dá)到那種水平。”
He said he could have “for public relations sake” included one Black and female artist “that didn’t measure up to that same historical standard, just to avert this kind of criticism.”
他說(shuō)，“為了公共關(guān)系”，他本可以加入一位“不符合同樣歷史標(biāo)準(zhǔn)”的黑人和女性藝術(shù)家，只是為了避免這種批評(píng)。
The day after the interview, Wenner was removed from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation board of directors and he apologized for his remarks.
在接受采訪的第二天，溫納被從搖滾名人堂基金會(huì)董事會(huì)除名，他為自己的言論道歉。
“In my interview with The New York Times, I made comments that diminished the contributions, genius, and impact of Black and women artists and I apologize wholeheartedly for those remarks,” he said in a statement given to The Hollywood Reporter. “The Masters is a collection of interviews I’ve done over the years that seemed to me to best represent an idea of rock ‘n’ roll’s impact on my world; they were not meant to represent the whole of music and its diverse and important originators but to reflect the high points of my career and interviews I felt illustrated the breadth and experience in that career. They don’t reflect my appreciation and admiration for myriad totemic, world-changing artists whose music and ideas I revere and will celebrate and promote as long as I live. I totally understand the inflammatory nature of badly chosen words and deeply apologize and accept the consequences.”
他在給《好萊塢報(bào)道者》的一份聲明中說(shuō):“在接受《紐約時(shí)報(bào)》采訪時(shí)，我發(fā)表了貶低黑人和女性藝術(shù)家的貢獻(xiàn)、才華和影響的言論，我為這些言論真誠(chéng)地道歉。”“《大師賽》是我多年來(lái)所做采訪的集錦，在我看來(lái)，這些采訪最能代表?yè)u滾樂(lè)對(duì)我的世界的影響;它們并不是要代表整個(gè)音樂(lè)和它的多樣性和重要的創(chuàng)始人，而是要反映我職業(yè)生涯的高潮，我覺(jué)得這些采訪說(shuō)明了我職業(yè)生涯的廣度和經(jīng)驗(yàn)。它們并沒(méi)有反映出我對(duì)無(wú)數(shù)圖騰般的、改變世界的藝術(shù)家的欣賞和欽佩，我尊敬他們的音樂(lè)和思想，并將在我有生之年贊美和推廣他們。我完全理解這種措辭不當(dāng)?shù)纳縿?dòng)性，我深表歉意，并接受后果。”
Elsewhere during Lee and Remnick’s hour-long chat, the filmmaker gave audience members at New York City’s Webster Hall, just a few hints about his upcoming Colin Kaepernick docuseries for ESPN.
在李和雷姆尼克長(zhǎng)達(dá)一小時(shí)的談話中，這位電影制作人給了紐約市韋伯斯特大廳的觀眾一些關(guān)于他即將為ESPN拍攝的科林·卡佩尼克紀(jì)錄片的暗示。
Lee said the project, which he says will be a five-part series, is “taking a long time,” because “the story keeps going.”The Oscar-winning writer-director says he currently has hundreds of hours of footage of interviews, including with Remnick, who shared his unease with being interviewed for 30-45 minutes with a camera that seemed like it was two-and-a-half feet from his face.
李說(shuō)，這部五集的電視劇“需要很長(zhǎng)時(shí)間”，因?yàn)?ldquo;故事還在繼續(xù)”。這位獲得奧斯卡獎(jiǎng)的編劇兼導(dǎo)演說(shuō)，他目前有數(shù)百小時(shí)的采訪錄像，包括對(duì)雷姆尼克的采訪。雷姆尼克說(shuō)，他對(duì)自己在30-45分鐘的采訪中面對(duì)一個(gè)看起來(lái)離他臉只有2.5英尺的攝像機(jī)感到不安。
“You were great,” Lee said.
“你太棒了，”李說(shuō)。
Remnick: “We’ll see.”
雷姆尼克:“走著瞧吧。”
The Kaepernick project was announced in February 2022 as part of the former NFL quarterback and activist’s first-look deal with ESPN parent company Disney.
卡佩尼克項(xiàng)目于2022年2月宣布，作為這位前NFL四分衛(wèi)和激進(jìn)分子與ESPN母公司迪士尼的初步協(xié)議的一部分。
The series, which Lee is directing and producing, is expected to feature Kaepernick telling his own, first person account of his life story, including his childhood as the mixed-race son of white adoptive parents; his football success in high school, college and with the NFL’s San Francisco 49ers; and the controversy that preceded his exit from the 49ers and alleged blackballing from the league after he took a knee during the National Anthem to protest racism and police brutality.
這部由李執(zhí)導(dǎo)并監(jiān)制的電視劇預(yù)計(jì)將由卡佩尼克講述他自己的第一人稱人生故事，包括他作為白人養(yǎng)父母的混血兒的童年;他在高中、大學(xué)和美國(guó)國(guó)家橄欖球聯(lián)盟(NFL)舊金山49人隊(duì)(San Francisco 49ers)的足球成就;以及在他離開(kāi)49人隊(duì)之前的爭(zhēng)議，以及他在國(guó)歌期間單膝跪地抗議種族主義和警察暴行后被聯(lián)盟拒之門外的指控。
《滾石》聯(lián)合創(chuàng)始人詹恩·溫納最近有爭(zhēng)議地選擇將女性和黑人音樂(lè)家排除在他的新書《大師》之外，斯派克·李就是其中之一。
During a wide-ranging interview with Lee at the 2023 New Yorker Festival on Saturday, New Yorker editor David Remnick recalled how a few weeks ago the pair were talking and Lee was “exercised” about the Wenner controversy.
上周六，在2023年紐約客節(jié)(New Yorker Festival)上，《紐約客》編輯大衛(wèi)·雷姆尼克(David Remnick)對(duì)李進(jìn)行了廣泛的采訪，他回憶了幾周前兩人的談話，李對(duì)溫納的爭(zhēng)議感到“不安”。
“It is just emblematic of how often Black people, brown people, colored people are overlooked for their genius, for their skill, hard work,” Lee said during the New Yorker Festival talk.
“這只是一個(gè)象征，表明黑人、棕色人種和有色人種的天才、技能和努力工作常常被忽視，”李在紐約客節(jié)演講中說(shuō)。
When reminded that Wenner had explained these omissions, in an interview with The New York Times that seemed to kickstart the backlash against the Rolling Stone co-founder, by saying that no female or Black artists were “articulate” enough to be included, Lee suggested that may have been particularly what he was irritated about.
在《紐約時(shí)報(bào)》的一次采訪中，溫納解釋了這些遺漏，他說(shuō)沒(méi)有女性或黑人藝術(shù)家“表達(dá)能力”足以被包括在內(nèi)，這似乎引發(fā)了對(duì)這位《滾石》聯(lián)合創(chuàng)始人的強(qiáng)烈反對(duì)。當(dāng)被提醒說(shuō)這可能是他特別惱火的地方。
“Whoa! There you go,” Lee said when Remnick recapped the “articulate” excuse.
“哇!這就對(duì)了，”李在雷姆尼克復(fù)述“清晰”的借口時(shí)說(shuō)。
“Think about all of the people you left out,” Lee continued. “I mean Elvis, Jerry Lee Lewis, they didn’t invent rock ‘n’ roll.”
“想想你漏掉的所有人，”李繼續(xù)說(shuō)道。“我的意思是，貓王、杰里·李·劉易斯，他們并沒(méi)有發(fā)明搖滾樂(lè)。”
In the Times interview, when asked about his selection process, after Wenner noted in the intro to The Masters that female and Black performers weren’t in his zeitgeist, Wenner said, “When I was referring to the zeitgeist, I was referring to Black performers, not to the female performers, OK? Just to get that accurate. The selection was not a deliberate selection. It was kind of intuitive over the years; it just fell together that way. The people had to meet a couple criteria, but it was just kind of my personal interest and love of them. Insofar as the women, just none of them were as articulate enough on this intellectual level.”
在接受《紐約時(shí)報(bào)》采訪時(shí)，當(dāng)被問(wèn)及他的選擇過(guò)程時(shí)，溫納在《大師》的介紹中指出，女性和黑人表演者不符合他的時(shí)代精神，溫納說(shuō):“當(dāng)我提到時(shí)代精神時(shí)，我指的是黑人表演者，而不是女性表演者，好嗎?為了得到準(zhǔn)確的結(jié)果。這種選擇并不是經(jīng)過(guò)深思熟慮的。多年來(lái)，這是一種直覺(jué);它們就這樣聚在一起了。這些人必須滿足一些標(biāo)準(zhǔn)，但這只是我個(gè)人的興趣和對(duì)他們的喜愛(ài)。就女性而言，她們中沒(méi)有一個(gè)人在智力層面上表達(dá)得足夠清晰。”
When The Times‘ David Marchese, who formerly worked for Rolling Stone, suggested that perhaps Joni Mitchell could have been included, Wenner said, “It’s not that they’re not creative geniuses. It’s not that they’re inarticulate, although, go have a deep conversation with Grace Slick or Janis Joplin. Please, be my guest. You know, Joni was not a philosopher of rock ’n’ roll. She didn’t, in my mind, meet that test. Not by her work, not by other interviews she did. The people I interviewed were the kind of philosophers of rock. Of Black artists — you know, Stevie Wonder, genius, right? I suppose when you use a word as broad as ‘masters,’ the fault is using that word. Maybe Marvin Gaye, or Curtis Mayfield? I mean, they just didn’t articulate at that level.”
曾供職于《滾石》雜志的《紐約時(shí)報(bào)》記者大衛(wèi)·馬切斯(David Marchese)提出，或許喬尼·米切爾(Joni Mitchell)也可以入選，溫納說(shuō)，“這并不是說(shuō)他們不是創(chuàng)意天才。這并不是說(shuō)他們不善于表達(dá)，不過(guò)，去和格蕾絲·斯利克或詹尼斯·喬普林進(jìn)行一次深入的交談吧。請(qǐng)別客氣。你知道，喬尼不是搖滾樂(lè)的哲學(xué)家。在我看來(lái)，她不符合這個(gè)標(biāo)準(zhǔn)。不是因?yàn)樗淖髌?，也不是因?yàn)樗邮艿钠渌稍L。我采訪的人都是搖滾樂(lè)的哲學(xué)家。黑人藝術(shù)家——你知道，史蒂夫·汪達(dá)，天才，對(duì)吧?我想，當(dāng)你使用‘主人’這樣一個(gè)寬泛的詞時(shí)，錯(cuò)誤就在于使用了這個(gè)詞。也許是馬文·蓋伊，或者柯蒂斯·梅菲爾德?我的意思是，他們只是沒(méi)有達(dá)到那種水平。”
He said he could have “for public relations sake” included one Black and female artist “that didn’t measure up to that same historical standard, just to avert this kind of criticism.”
他說(shuō)，“為了公共關(guān)系”，他本可以加入一位“不符合同樣歷史標(biāo)準(zhǔn)”的黑人和女性藝術(shù)家，只是為了避免這種批評(píng)。
The day after the interview, Wenner was removed from the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame Foundation board of directors and he apologized for his remarks.
在接受采訪的第二天，溫納被從搖滾名人堂基金會(huì)董事會(huì)除名，他為自己的言論道歉。
“In my interview with The New York Times, I made comments that diminished the contributions, genius, and impact of Black and women artists and I apologize wholeheartedly for those remarks,” he said in a statement given to The Hollywood Reporter. “The Masters is a collection of interviews I’ve done over the years that seemed to me to best represent an idea of rock ‘n’ roll’s impact on my world; they were not meant to represent the whole of music and its diverse and important originators but to reflect the high points of my career and interviews I felt illustrated the breadth and experience in that career. They don’t reflect my appreciation and admiration for myriad totemic, world-changing artists whose music and ideas I revere and will celebrate and promote as long as I live. I totally understand the inflammatory nature of badly chosen words and deeply apologize and accept the consequences.”
他在給《好萊塢報(bào)道者》的一份聲明中說(shuō):“在接受《紐約時(shí)報(bào)》采訪時(shí)，我發(fā)表了貶低黑人和女性藝術(shù)家的貢獻(xiàn)、才華和影響的言論，我為這些言論真誠(chéng)地道歉。”“《大師賽》是我多年來(lái)所做采訪的集錦，在我看來(lái)，這些采訪最能代表?yè)u滾樂(lè)對(duì)我的世界的影響;它們并不是要代表整個(gè)音樂(lè)和它的多樣性和重要的創(chuàng)始人，而是要反映我職業(yè)生涯的高潮，我覺(jué)得這些采訪說(shuō)明了我職業(yè)生涯的廣度和經(jīng)驗(yàn)。它們并沒(méi)有反映出我對(duì)無(wú)數(shù)圖騰般的、改變世界的藝術(shù)家的欣賞和欽佩，我尊敬他們的音樂(lè)和思想，并將在我有生之年贊美和推廣他們。我完全理解這種措辭不當(dāng)?shù)纳縿?dòng)性，我深表歉意，并接受后果。”
Elsewhere during Lee and Remnick’s hour-long chat, the filmmaker gave audience members at New York City’s Webster Hall, just a few hints about his upcoming Colin Kaepernick docuseries for ESPN.
在李和雷姆尼克長(zhǎng)達(dá)一小時(shí)的談話中，這位電影制作人給了紐約市韋伯斯特大廳的觀眾一些關(guān)于他即將為ESPN拍攝的科林·卡佩尼克紀(jì)錄片的暗示。
Lee said the project, which he says will be a five-part series, is “taking a long time,” because “the story keeps going.”The Oscar-winning writer-director says he currently has hundreds of hours of footage of interviews, including with Remnick, who shared his unease with being interviewed for 30-45 minutes with a camera that seemed like it was two-and-a-half feet from his face.
李說(shuō)，這部五集的電視劇“需要很長(zhǎng)時(shí)間”，因?yàn)?ldquo;故事還在繼續(xù)”。這位獲得奧斯卡獎(jiǎng)的編劇兼導(dǎo)演說(shuō)，他目前有數(shù)百小時(shí)的采訪錄像，包括對(duì)雷姆尼克的采訪。雷姆尼克說(shuō)，他對(duì)自己在30-45分鐘的采訪中面對(duì)一個(gè)看起來(lái)離他臉只有2.5英尺的攝像機(jī)感到不安。
“You were great,” Lee said.
“你太棒了，”李說(shuō)。
Remnick: “We’ll see.”
雷姆尼克:“走著瞧吧。”
The Kaepernick project was announced in February 2022 as part of the former NFL quarterback and activist’s first-look deal with ESPN parent company Disney.
卡佩尼克項(xiàng)目于2022年2月宣布，作為這位前NFL四分衛(wèi)和激進(jìn)分子與ESPN母公司迪士尼的初步協(xié)議的一部分。
The series, which Lee is directing and producing, is expected to feature Kaepernick telling his own, first person account of his life story, including his childhood as the mixed-race son of white adoptive parents; his football success in high school, college and with the NFL’s San Francisco 49ers; and the controversy that preceded his exit from the 49ers and alleged blackballing from the league after he took a knee during the National Anthem to protest racism and police brutality.
這部由李執(zhí)導(dǎo)并監(jiān)制的電視劇預(yù)計(jì)將由卡佩尼克講述他自己的第一人稱人生故事，包括他作為白人養(yǎng)父母的混血兒的童年;他在高中、大學(xué)和美國(guó)國(guó)家橄欖球聯(lián)盟(NFL)舊金山49人隊(duì)(San Francisco 49ers)的足球成就;以及在他離開(kāi)49人隊(duì)之前的爭(zhēng)議，以及他在國(guó)歌期間單膝跪地抗議種族主義和警察暴行后被聯(lián)盟拒之門外的指控。
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