演員喬納森·凡·奈斯在達克斯·謝潑德的播客上，為跨性別權(quán)利辯護時泣不成聲

喬納森·凡·奈斯在采訪達克斯·謝潑德時情緒激動。

During the wide-ranging conversation on Shepard's podcast, Armchair Expert, the duo clashed while discussing whether The New York Times should be considered a liberal-leaning organization, given what Van Ness described as "anti-trans" content. To this, Shepard argued using conservative talking points such as the outlet was merely "challenging" and asking "questions" about issues, such as teens taking puberty blockers.
在謝潑德的播客《扶手椅專家》上進行的廣泛對話中，兩人在討論《紐約時報》是否應(yīng)該被視為一個傾向自由主義的組織時發(fā)生了沖突，因為凡·奈斯稱之為“反跨性別”的內(nèi)容。對此，謝潑德認為，使用保守的談話要點，如出口，只是“具有挑戰(zhàn)性”，并就一些問題提出“問題”，比如青少年服用青春期阻斷劑。

He continued, "This whole notion that to be critical… or to question even question it makes you an enemy. I don't think that's the way forward."
他繼續(xù)說道，“這種批判性的想法……或者質(zhì)疑甚至質(zhì)疑都會讓你成為敵人。我不認為這是前進的道路。”

"I feel like I'm talking to my dad," Van Ness, who is trans and uses they/them pronouns, said in response.
“我覺得我在和我爸爸說話，”凡·奈斯回應(yīng)道，他是跨性別者，使用they/them代詞。

"All I'm saying is what we know about misinformation and disinformation is when you have an outsized reaction to something, there's a good chance that you're being exposed to misinformation and disinformation," the Queer Eye expert and LGBTQ+ activist said. "And a lot of the rhetoric around the anti-trans backlash does have a lot of misinformation and disinformation in it."
Queer Eye專家和LGBTQ+活動家表示：“我想說的是，我們對錯誤信息和虛假信息的了解是，當(dāng)你對某件事有過度反應(yīng)時，你很有可能會接觸到錯誤信息和錯誤信息。”。“圍繞反跨性別反彈的許多言論中確實有很多錯誤信息和虛假信息。”

"I'm not calling you a transphobe," Van Ness said at one point. "You can not be transphobic and still have thoughts that espouse trans misogyny and espouse transphobic ideologies and beliefs."
“我并不是說你是跨性別恐懼癥患者，”凡·奈斯曾說。“你不可能是跨性別恐懼癥患者，但仍然有支持跨性別厭女癥和支持跨性別恐懼意識形態(tài)和信仰的想法。”

Van Ness also pointed out that as a nonbinary person himself, they find it "disappointing" when people — such as J.K. Rowling — claim to be fighting for women when they exclude trans kids from sports. The discussion went on for over 20 minutes, with Van Ness citing specific instances of athletes and children being excluded from sports on illegitimate grounds.
凡·奈斯還指出，作為一個非二進制人，當(dāng)人們——比如J.K.羅琳——聲稱在將跨性別兒童排除在體育運動之外時是在為女性而戰(zhàn)時，他們會感到“失望”。討論持續(xù)了20多分鐘，凡·奈斯列舉了運動員和兒童因非法理由被排除在體育運動之外的具體例子。

When they noted that they hoped their appearance on Shepard's show would be spent chatting about their own podcast, Getting Curious, Shepard apologized for the tangent, saying he "did not intend" to start a debate.
當(dāng)他們注意到，他們希望自己在謝潑德節(jié)目中的露面能花在談?wù)撟约旱牟タ汀逗闷妗飞蠒r，謝潑德為此事道歉，稱他“不打算”引發(fā)辯論。

"I didn't want that at all," Shepard said. "I adore you. I think that you're hysterical and talented and I love that you're an activist." Afterwards, Van Ness broke down in tears as they unpacked the personal significance of the issue.
“我根本不想那樣，”謝潑德說。“我崇拜你。我認為你歇斯底里，才華橫溢，我喜歡你是一個活動家。”之后，當(dāng)他們解開這個問題的個人意義時，凡·奈斯泣不成聲。

"I could just cry because I'm so tired of having to fight for little kids because they just want to be included," they told Shepard, getting emotional. "I wish that people were as passionate about little kids being able to be included or grow up as they were about fictitious women's fairness in sports. I have to tell you, I am very tired."
他們情緒激動地告訴謝潑德：“我可以哭了，因為我厭倦了為孩子們而戰(zhàn)，因為他們只想被包括在內(nèi)。”。“我希望人們對小孩子能夠被包容或成長充滿熱情，就像他們對虛構(gòu)的女性在體育運動中的公平充滿熱情一樣。我必須告訴你，我很累。”

Van Ness added, "I'm scared of the vitriol that trans people face everyday."
凡·奈斯補充道：“我害怕跨性別者每天面臨的刻薄。”

Noting that the "casual questioning" of rights can have even weightier results than trans kids being unable to participate in sports, "It's also healthcare, it's also gender-based violence," they said.
他們指出，對權(quán)利的“隨意質(zhì)疑”可能會比跨性別兒童無法參加體育運動產(chǎn)生更嚴(yán)重的后果，“這也是醫(yī)療保健，也是基于性別的暴力，”他們說。